ALD?

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  • HaffnerHaffner Posts: 7,887
    OT but I think Vivian would have been doomed playing like Yngwie anyway. I mean, I realize YM uses a lot more economy picking than most people think (in fact I think I learned that from you, Andy). But I'm pretty sure Vivian was overwhelmingly downpicking with Dio.
  • Duojett71Duojett71 Posts: 9,452
    It also became very sour grapes to Vivian about how he was treated and paid with Dio. So for years that was something that was hard for him to think about. He was a major driving force on those first 3 Dio albums and was paid very little. I wish he had reconciled with Ronnie as well....but I can certainly understand his anger over it. RJD could have reached out to him before he died as well. The burden of that did not solely lie with Vivian in my opinion. 
  • HaffnerHaffner Posts: 7,887
    Duojett71 said:
    It also became very sour grapes to Vivian about how he was treated and paid with Dio. So for years that was something that was hard for him to think about. He was a major driving force on those first 3 Dio albums and was paid very little. I wish he had reconciled with Ronnie as well....but I can certainly understand his anger over it. RJD could have reached out to him before he died as well. The burden of that did not solely lie with Vivian in my opinion. 
    Yes, I believe it was brought up here that Vivian got screwed over money-wise by Ronnie (which very much surprised me, given Dio's own apparent screwing by Blackmore and co.). Something like he was being paid less than the lighting guy, which is pretty darn bad considering how many of the songs he helped write turned out to be widely accepted as Immortal.

    I guess when I see things in the way you're describing I feel more sympathy toward Vivian. Perhaps the money thing really soured him on that whole genre and style of playing (he didn't really play as well with either WS or DL imo). 

    But hey, what he did with Ronnie Dio isn't going to go away anytime soon, I count tracks like Don't Talk to Strangers, Last in Line, Sacred Heart, and quite a few others as just as strong as most of the Rainbow and Black Sabbath songs before them. Which to me is saying a lot, since those last two bands are my favorites.
  • Viv was an unknown hired hand when he joined Dio. He grew into more. Perhaps he was due more money and respect. If it were me, I would have given it to him. Was he truly screwed over? Quite possibly. I don't put that past anyone, even Dio. 

    At that moment in time, Dio was the name, I can see why RJD might have thought that guitarists like Campbell grew on trees, and one was as good as the next. He didn't realize that while he was this magnificent metal voice, the SOUND of his solo band was the sound of Campbell. 
    In the midst of the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.
  • HaffnerHaffner Posts: 7,887
    edited February 4
    Viv was an unknown hired hand when he joined Dio. He grew into more. Perhaps he was due more money and respect. If it were me, I would have given it to him. Was he truly screwed over? Quite possibly. I don't put that past anyone, even Dio. 

    At that moment in time, Dio was the name, I can see why RJD might have thought that guitarists like Campbell grew on trees, and one was as good as the next. He didn't realize that while he was this magnificent metal voice, the SOUND of his solo band was the sound of Campbell. 
    Dio the band was never as good imo. There are jewels scattered here and there, though, and at least he tried different things with Strange Highways and Master of the Moon.

    Nowhere near Holy Diver, Last in Line, or even the best songs off of Sacred Heart imo.
    Post edited by Haffner on
  • Those first two DIO albums are metal classics, and they defined the sound of the DIO band that RJD never achieved again. Nor did he ever produced similar-quality material with DIO.  Was the band DIO as good as Dio-era Rainbow or Sabbath, NO. But it was great in its own right at that time.
    In the midst of the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.
  • HaffnerHaffner Posts: 7,887
    edited February 4
    Those first two DIO albums are metal classics, and they defined the sound of the DIO band that RJD never achieved again. Nor did he ever produced similar-quality material with DIO.  Was the band DIO as good as Dio-era Rainbow or Sabbath, NO. But it was great in its own right at that time.
    I too prefer the Rainbow and Sabbath material, but the Dio solo stuff could be SO good, and SO distinctive. Never got that kind of manic, youthful sound again. I think Vivian's then-enthusiasm rubbed off on the whole band, his leads and rhythm style seemed to pop right off the vinyl. For the first two albums it seemed that they were just having a terrific time with this music and each other. The third had its moments (and the best songs imo are still better than practically anything since since as a solo band), but the problems were in evidence. No way things like Hungry for Heaven or Shoot Shoot would have made the grade on Holy Diver.

    I think Ronnie tried to recapture that exuberance with young Rowan Robertson on ...Wolves, but with very spotty results.
    Post edited by Haffner on
  • Duojett71Duojett71 Posts: 9,452
    Viv was an unknown hired hand when he joined Dio. He grew into more. Perhaps he was due more money and respect. If it were me, I would have given it to him. Was he truly screwed over? Quite possibly. I don't put that past anyone, even Dio. 

    At that moment in time, Dio was the name, I can see why RJD might have thought that guitarists like Campbell grew on trees, and one was as good as the next. He didn't realize that while he was this magnificent metal voice, the SOUND of his solo band was the sound of Campbell. 
    Agreed. Ronnie gave him notoriety he probably would not have gained otherwise....but I strongly feel that Campbell helped reignite Ronnie's career and gave him financial success he never had before. DIO the band was pretty big between '84-86. Fortunately for Vivian he landed a great gig with Whitesnake that eventually led to a high profile and lucrative gig with DL....a gig that he was required to play in a way he was probably directed to. I don't put the blame on him for that either. I imagine that is why he has Last In Line gig and occasionally plays with the Riverdogs. Those bands allow him to play to his ability. Believe it or not he lets loose more in the lead guitar department on the last Riverdogs album than either Last in Line record. My opinions on Vivian are pretty biased I guess because I am still a huge fan. 
  • HaffnerHaffner Posts: 7,887
    Duojett71 said:
     My opinions on Vivian are pretty biased I guess because I am still a huge fan. 
    Oh, I am completely with you on that as far as the Ronnie stuff goes. I just didn't get that thrill from the rest, but because of you Mark I'll def give Riverdogs another try.
  • The last things I heard of Riverdogs didn't sound good to me song-wise (the strength of that band's 1st album), and nothing like the lead work Viv played on the first album.
    In the midst of the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.
  • MelodicGritMelodicGrit Posts: 601
    The last things I heard of Riverdogs didn't sound good to me song-wise (the strength of that band's 1st album), and nothing like the lead work Viv played on the first album.
    Agree 100%.  I love VC's work on the Dio albums, and he still played well on the Riverdogs record and the Shadow Kings release, but even then he didn't bring the picking or fire/intensity to those records that he had in Dio.  I've not heard anything from him since then that speaks to me or that warrants repeated listens (except maybe recent Riverdogs).  It's all 2nd (or 3rd tier) playing and songs imo, not a patch on his 80s output.  And don't get me started on his solo record, for me that was the worst recording ever by an 80s guitar god, not even remotely recognizable as the same guy that played on those Dio albums.  If anything represents ALD at its worst, it's that record.  Can't blame him for taking the DL gig as a working musician, but what gets me about guys like this is that they fail to recognize why they had fans in the first place:  they had something distinctive about their sound or playing style that stuck out from the pack.  Removing those unique elements from the playing effectively neuters them and makes them sound like everyone else.  Good that VC has been rediscovering himself in recent years, but to me the timing is suspect.  Also interesting to read YouTube comments on Last in Line tracks about the "ripping" solos... makes me roll my eyes a bit.  Would any of that stuff have made the cut in Dio's band in the 80s?  No chance.
  • Dinosaur David BDinosaur David B Posts: 17,748
    edited February 4
    I actually love his playing on the first Riverdogs album.  He's a far more seasoned and controlled player at that point, and those songs didn't call for the kinds of shreddy solos he played in Dio. Yet he still picked his spots to add some flash. It's very tasty stuff.
    Unfortunately, we never got much of that from his recorded output again, either.
    Post edited by Dinosaur David B on
    In the midst of the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.
  • Tatosh GuitarTatosh Guitar Posts: 1,897
    Most of you guys are older than me and lived thru that stuff. Aside of obviously Pontus, I wouldn't be surprised if I am  the youngest here, I was a toddler in the early 80's.. I didn't live thru this, but I have read plenty, and met guys who did. I of course vow to you guys who did.

    Anyway... Yeah, Viv got quite depressed when he first heard Yngwie. There's dozens of interviews on the subject. When told this, Yngwie answered that he should be the jealous one, since Viv was playing with the best singer in the world.

    The Sykes thing I didn't know. That said, years and years ago I was a member of some other forum where a guy deep in the business would tell us stories, that more often than not turned out to be true (he basically told us the maiden and priest reunions of 20 years ago were gonna happen. nobody believed him then. Turned to be 100% true.) He kept his identity secret, and knew stuff from the good old days. Anyway, he told me once that back in the early 80's, Lynnott and Sykes heard about an awesome swedish kid who was turning heads. They looked for him, they wanted to see if the buzz was true, apparently to beef up Lizzy's sound. They couldn´t find him because Mike Varney had flown him to amercia by then. The guy was of course Yngwie. I wonder if this was around the time Sykes got all disheartened?

    Schenker, btw, seemed to quite enjoy Yngwie's playing, althought he said that after the first couple albums it got old fast.

    But yeah, Yngwie was a HUGE DEAL back then. Even before Alcatrazz. He says he would play small gigs with Steeler and all the big guns would show up. Ozzy. Dio. If they were somebody, they would go see him. He claims he was getting offers left and right, and that he went with Alcatrazz because that meant working with Bonnett, who had worked with Blackmore. Lynch actually says he thinks Yngwie changed things more that Randy Rhoads, and ranks him second after EVH as the main guy in this era. The general public might have been unaware of him, but people on the inside were aware of him.

    There's also word of a demo he had done prior to this, that made the rounds on the tape trading circuit (remember that lol). The thrash metal guys from SF got hold of it at some point, and there's a rumor that might have influenced a bit of their own stuff. Both Kirk Hammett and Alex Skolnick have sorta talked about it, but never clarified it.

    But I digress...

    Sykes was never subject to ALD. Neither was YJM. Neither was EVH, I suppose. Some guys just kept doing what they had always done, while some others simply burned that part of their brain. Gary is probably the worst offender. As Dave says, what the hell was that? Not even Clapton sunk that low (gasp)

    Lifeson and Viv are probably the only ones I am willing to cut some slack. Ironic consideing  the disease is named after him but I honestly think he is the lesser offender. As for Viv, he was young, and got lied to his face, according to him. That said, I don't think I have really liked anything he has done since the 80's. That Last in Line project is cool, but has zero staying power and the leads sound like slowed down versions of his classic Dio stuff. Riverdogs is cool, that said.
  • StitselStitsel Posts: 2,048
    Interesting discussion.... I agree w/everyone I guess, but mostly Duojett.Dio's my favorite singer forever, but he was no saint.It's pretty well documented Viv was a starry eyed kid who was taken under Dio's wing & he gave the band fantastic results.Can't imagine any other player on those 1st 3 albums, & what he did on the albums is legendary, at least in my book.Sure Dio era  Rainbow & Sabbath will always be the shit, but those 1st 3 Dio albums are pretty much of equal importance to me.

    I believe Viv when he says he was promised a bigger slice of the pie "after the 3rd album" or "when we achieve X success..." or whatever Ronnie told him.In the end, he had no choice but to go along, if he wanted to keep his dream job.What a gig! I often thought back in the day, if I ever was good enough, that would be the gig I'd want.Around the time Dio started the musical guitarists thing, I vividly remember thinking that....these unknowns after Viv were getting the gig.....I wonder how much he paid Goldy or Robertson....or even Tracy G?! Sheeesh....

    So I don't really begrudge Viv for feeling the way he felt myself.It's sad some of the things that were said by both camps, it really bummed me when Ronnie went off saying he hoped Viv would die, calling him an ungrateful bastard & whatnot, when it easily could have been handled better, back in the day.As a 16-17 yr old seeing Dio play a huge concert coliseum (the Seattle Center Coliseum, where the Supersonics used to play) with Yngwie opening, you couldn't have convinced me back then that his star guitarist was making minimum wage.....

    I always knew Viv still had the chops, & I'm just glad he's playing that stuff again.A little too late, uh....I guess I can understand people's feelings on that but I'm cool with it.I don't blame Viv for everything that went down.I know some people have mixed feelings about his newer projects but from a guitar standpoint alone, seeing Last In Line in a shitty little club was worth it's weight in gold.Loved every second of it, Viv was flamin' away hard on that black Les Paul  B)


  • Dinosaur David BDinosaur David B Posts: 17,748
    edited February 5

    Anyway... Yeah, Viv got quite depressed when he first heard Yngwie. There's dozens of interviews on the subject. When told this, Yngwie answered that he should be the jealous one, since Viv was playing with the best singer in the world. 

    The only thing I remember Viv saying -- when asked about YJM, in a guitar mag interview at the time, was, "I certainly showed up (to the Dio gig) ready to play as fast as I could." To which YJM replied (in his next Guitar World interview) "He shouldn't think that way. He should just be himself," (and, yeah, "enjoy playing with Dio)."

    Which is what happened anyway. Viv's fast was a totally different kind of fast, flashy playing than YJM's. 

    I had all the mags of that period, and while everyone agreed that YJM's technique was astonishingly impressive, frankly I don't recall ANYONE admitting that they were intimidated, much less depressed by YJM. And even if they were, they weren't admitting it. As with EVH before YJM, most players, when asked, said very respectful things, whether they actually felt that way or not.
    Post edited by Dinosaur David B on
    In the midst of the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.
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