Bach in Dino music, where did it come from?

MannyNixMannyNix Posts: 167
edited December 1969 in Songwriting
I apologize if this has been debated to death before, also sorry for my lack of articulate English.
I've been thinking and researching a little about it and I hope you can share your thoughts.

I completely agree with the Alchemy profile that reads: "Ritchie brought Bach to Rock" (http://www.dinosaurrockguitar.com/new/node/13).

There are plenty of interviews where Ritchie talks about how Bach is his favorite composer (http://www.rainbowfanclan.com/interviews/interviews.html).

However... how did Ritchie got interested in Bach?
My wild guess is Ritchie was just another British guitarrist exposed to Hendrix, Clapton and the British Blues, probably impossible to avoid in his time.
I know he listened to other stuff, but it's clear he was aware of Hendrix and Clapton, here's proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olZBo0qy6Hs

Then he landed a gig with super awesome organ player Jon Lord, who as an organist must be aware of Bach and appreciate him.
As their relationship progressed and they jammed and composed together I guess that's how Ritchie got into Bach?
Yngwie got into Bach because he liked Blackmore, that's an easy guess.
What do you think? Thanks for input.  :shred:
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Comments

  • Mike_HMike_H Posts: 769
    That's a great question.
    Don't have a great answer, I have never read anything where Blackmore addresses how he got into it.
    Some guesses only.
    1. Classical guitar lessons when he started, maybe he liked it or latched onto something from that?
    2. BBC Third Programme? Just a wild guess, but there was a lot more classical music on the radio, and this would likely have been the case in the 50s, when he would have been younger. Maybe he heard some programme with it and liked it. It is tuneful music.
    3. Parents music? My parents had a number of classical albums when I was growing up in the 70s, maybe his had the same in the 40s and 50s? That makes a big influence, even if you initially try to rebel against it.

    I hope someone here knows the actual answer.
  • BreakfastimeBreakfastime Posts: 2,152
    I remember that Blackmore started playing Cello (maybe in the early 70's) and he said that some of his chord progressions came from that study.

    Good point on the influence of Jon Lord on Ritchie's appreciation of this stuff.

    I always kind of thought that Jens Johanson might have been the guy who showed Yngwie the classical ropes--not the influence making Yng seek out this stuff in the first place(that would be the Blackmore/Uli influence I believe), but the guy Yngwie actually knew who had studied it and was able to show young Yng the finer points.

    I always credit Dick Dale (the most Dino of the surf guitarists) with bringing exotic scales to rock music.  Take Dick's low string treemolo picking melodies, and move 'em up (way up!) the neck, you start to get Blackmore-sounding stuff!
  • Could be from a thousand different directions. I think it is much the same as discovering any other musician that you like, but remember that Bach was a teacher. So he wrote a TON of music in order to demonstrate particular things. So instead of writing just "exercises" he was writing exercises into actual music so his students could start playing and understanding at the same time. I think they are called "Inventions."

    So if you were growing up (or already grown) and getting interested in music and how it works, it's understandable that you'd hit upon Bach who did SO much work as a teacher. And since a lot of bonafide Dino musicians can actually play  :smile: and understand music better than many of the other "rock stars" out there, I'd imagine that Bach would be a natural attraction.
  • AgrippaAgrippa Posts: 5,872
    Bach was a master of the organ, as well as most other classical instruments, so it's obvious an organist like Lord would know Bach.

    As a Blackmore fanatic of course I know he has mentioned Bach, but the classical influences I can hear in his playing is more Elizabethan than Bach.
    That's composers like Tallis, Byrd, Dowland and Purcell.

    And the solo's on Highway Star, Burn, Kill The King AND A Light In The Black are, when it comes to the chord progressions, definitely way more Mozart than Bach.

    I can't in all honesty point to a recorded moment in Blackers playing where I can say "THATS Bach, and only Bach".

  • MannyNixMannyNix Posts: 167
    Thanks for the feedback, very interesting points.

    I remember Ritchie talking about the Cello and how much he admired Jacqueline du Pré.
    Speaking of Yngwie, in his book 'Relentless' he says Bach influence came mostly from Genesis:
    “If anything, Genesis had a much greater influence in pushing me towards classical structures. Tony Banks, the keyboardist, was like a virtual Bach jukebox, with his arsenal of tricks like pedal notes and diminished chords.”
    I'm not sure I believe it...

    I'm checking out Dick Dale, awesome, thanks Breakfastime :up:
  • Dr NickDr Nick Posts: 3,556
    According to the other Yngwie bio, he saw a Russian violinist playing Paganini's 24 Caprices on state TV, and that really got him into classical music in general, and Paganini in particular as far as speed and scales was concerned. He then delved further into other classical areas.
    Doesn't say where Bach specifically came into the equation, but Yngwie calls him the "most influential classical composer", and everyone after him was influenced by him, so you end up back at Bach eventually.

    Tony Macalpine was a top notch classical pianist before he got into guitar, so his route is more obvious, even if he's forever being accused of being an Yngwie clone. But he never achieved the same level of fame.
  • Jay GJay G Posts: 2,659
    [quote author=Agrippa link=topic=16203.msg245910#msg245910 date=1393837355]
    Bach was a master of the organ, as well as most other classical instruments, so it's obvious an organist like Lord would know Bach.

    As a Blackmore fanatic of course I know he has mentioned Bach, but the classical influences I can hear in his playing is more Elizabethan than Bach.
    That's composers like Tallis, Byrd, Dowland and Purcell.

    And the solo's on Highway Star, Burn, Kill The King AND A Light In The Black are, when it comes to the chord progressions, definitely way more Mozart than Bach.

    I can't in all honesty point to a recorded moment in Blackers playing where I can say "THATS Bach, and only Bach".


    [/quote]

    I seem to recall Ritchie mentioning that Rainbows Snake Charmer was based on some sort of Bach progression
  • AgrippaAgrippa Posts: 5,872
    The trouble is, when someone (me) makes a categorical statement like "a mozart progression", I forget to say that there really is no certified Mozart progression in music.
    Nor are there any "All Bach" notes.
    Snakecharmer (the song) may very well be inspired by a Bach piece, I just don' t hear it any more than I hear Bach in any other blues rock song from the 70s.

    Having said that, when I hear "A Whiter Shade Of Pale", Alice Coopers Welcome To My Nightmare (which uses quite a few parts of Toccata And Fugue in d minor) or the Speed King organ intro (again Toccata And Fugue) I know I'm hearing a certain Bach influence.
    When I hear Malmsteens pedal tones I can hear a very classical technique used often by Bach but I don't get that with the same certainty in any of Blackmores work.
    His live improvisations on Catch The Rainbow and the intro to 16th Century Greensleeves is to my limited knowledge of classical music more Elizabethan than Bach.
    A short Purcell (Elizabethan) lute piece:
    I hear a lot of the way certain "riffs", sequences of notes, gets repeated in Blackmores mid 70s improvs.
    Listen F.I. to this intro:
    Bach on the the other hand is to my ears usually way more complex and "convoluted":



    But when I hear his "snake charmer scale"  I KNOW there's a balkan, or gypsy, influence going on.


  • jebbuddajebbudda Posts: 5,030
    [quote author=Agrippa link=topic=16203.msg246014#msg246014 date=1393995031]
    The trouble is, when someone (me) makes a categorical statement like "a mozart progression", I forget to say that there really is no certified Mozart progression in music.
    Nor are there any "All Bach" notes.
    [/quote]


    Yeah but certin intervals and techniques...like pedal point that you mention or the broken arpeggio licks or triad stacking etc etc...are almost Bach cliches when it comes to Neo Classical guitar playing . IMHO guys ripped those licks right out of famous scores and copied them on guitar . I know that guys... Vinnie Moore for example ....studied classical violin and flute lexicons . I can hear parts of Bach's Ode to Joy in Vinnie Moore's King of King's . Certin things are gonna be repeated . I believe the classical masters have been ripped off note for note . I'm not saying that I have any problem with them doing that ....I rip everybody I listen to off .

    I can't speak with much authority on the subject but I'd be willing to bet Uli Roth has spent considerable time studying classical composers . He frickin' transcribed Vivaldi's Four Seasons for guitar ....thats gotta rub off on you . All those " paraphrase " tracks . Forgetaboutit . :nope:

    Blackmore was doin' the triad arpeggio thing early on . I'm not sure when Uli started doin' his thing in relation to Blackmore...like which one was first ....thats a tough one to pinpoint . Sails of Charon was some early Bach n Roll ..or Paganni Roll ...or Vivaldi Roll .

    Whatever it is they adopted something they heard to guitar .


  • MannyNixMannyNix Posts: 167
    I knew there would be valuable feedback here, thanks!.
    @Agrippa: Thanks for those. Good call about Henry Purcell.
    I found this short clip of an older Jon Lord himself talking about Highway Star and its Bach influence at 0:19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3U2V2F1sr8
    Jon was awesome! May he R.I.P.
  • The SeekerThe Seeker Posts: 575
    Short clip of 'Jan Akkerman' playing and talking about Bach in Rock and Roll.  The look on his face at the end is priceless !!


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYwQ9sC4h_w
  • Andy GAndy G Posts: 996
    [quote author=MannyNix link=topic=16203.msg245985#msg245985 date=1393950657]
    Speaking of Yngwie, in his book 'Relentless' he says Bach influence came mostly from Genesis:
    “If anything, Genesis had a much greater influence in pushing me towards classical structures. Tony Banks, the keyboardist, was like a virtual Bach jukebox, with his arsenal of tricks like pedal notes and diminished chords.”
    I'm not sure I believe it...
    [/quote]
    I don't believe it either. Yngwie was massively influenced by his keyboard player Jens Johansson - many people miss this. They influenced each other very much.

    According to Jens, Yngwie wasn't into Bach to begin with - he was into Paganini and it was Jens was the Bach nut - they would have friendly arguments, as Yngwie would say "Paganini is faster" and Jens would respond that "yes, but Bach is cooler". That comes from a recent interview.

    Jens had a very big hand in the development of Yngwie's music and the writing and was rarely (if ever) credited. According the Jens, the band members never got proper credit for their writing (same story as Ritchie/Rainbow) and that was one of the main factors for Jens quitting Rising Force.

    Look at how Yngwie's music has become ever more repetitive, simplistic and juvenile since Jens and Marcel Jacob left the band. Once Mats Olausson left, Yngwie's music well and truly went down the shitter... And take a look at what Yngwie's producing now that he's doing EVERYTHING himself... Well, you figure it out  :wink:
  • jebbuddajebbudda Posts: 5,030
    Agreed .

    I underestimated the greatness of the Johansson brothers...Jens in particular....until I heard them with Jonas Hellborg . The brothers Johansson played on Hellborg's funk album ...its just the three of them . Holy Crap .

    No doubt they both out grew Yngwie .
  • HaffnerHaffner Posts: 7,804
    [quote author=jebbudda link=topic=16203.msg246239#msg246239 date=1394399357]
    Agreed .

    I underestimated the greatness of the Johansson brothers...Jens in particular....until I heard them with Jonas Hellborg . The brothers Johansson played on Hellborg's funk album ...its just the three of them . Holy Crap .

    No doubt they both out grew Yngwie .
    [/quote]


    Plus, there's that collaboration with Holdsworth, very cool album (I still have the super duper collector's editon :cool:)
  • Someone asked earlier where Blackmore got his classical training.  Just read an old interview where he stated big Jim Sullivan taught him a range of styles including Bach. By the way.....around 78/79 he played a piece on stage(usually inserted before 16th Century Greenesleeves ie on the Live in Germany DVD) called Brandenburg invention, which as the name suggests was inspired by one of Bach's 6 concertos of the same name.
    .
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