The Scandinavia Black Metal thread.

AgrippaAgrippa Posts: 5,926
First, a question to Andy: About Panzer Division Marduk:
[quote author=Haffner link=topic=11531.msg211855#msg211855 date=1339779522]
I hear so many people cry about the (in neo-Baroque stuffy voice) "lack of dy-NAHM-ics or vari-A-tion". They don't seem to get the fact that it's meant to be that way. To me it's the Reign in Blood of the Second Wave of Scandinavian Black Metal, with either Ablaze in the Northern Sky or In the Nightside Eclipse the Master of Puppets, and Under the Sign of the Black Mark the Paranoid.

[/quote]

I was wondering, where do you put albums like Mayhems De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas, Ulvers Bergtatt, Satyricons Nemesis Devina, Kvists For Kunsten Maa Vi Evig Vike, Thorns st and Satyricons Rebel Extravagaza if you still compare them to thrash and metal albums ??

And imo are A blaze in the Northren sky, Under a Funeral Moon and Transilvanian Hunger by Darkthrone the missing links between Venom, Bathory and the 2nd wave of scandinavian BM.
Post edited by Stitsel on
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Comments

  • HaffnerHaffner Posts: 7,887
    Not sure this is going to be a popular thread, Henrik :wink:

    But hey, I like it!

    I meant Metallica and Slayer and Sabbath as official Heavy Metal Monuments of pioneering Importance. De Mysteriis, in my opinion, really suffered not having Dead on vocals. As cool as a song like Life Eternal was, just imagine how much more chilling it would have been with Dead. You can hear the difference with Funeral Fog and Freezing Moon, etc. on Live In Leipzig. The only song that I thought Attila excelled on was Buried By Time and Dust, mostly because he just resorted to what he did best: ape "Under the Sign of the Black Mark" era Bathory same as he did in Tormentor (cool band btw if you didn't know, I'm guessing you did). De Mysteriis is certainly a really good album, Hellhammer is phenomenal, and Pagan Fears seemed to come together well. But Dead was right up there with Quorthon, Ihsahn, and Varg as premier Black Metal vocalist imo. Attila wasn't the right man, to be fair probably no one could be.

    To me Nemesis Divina is a fabulous classic, the beginning of Black Metal becoming more musically minded. The only problem to be heard when I listen to the early Burzum, Darkthrone, and the Emperor/Enslaved split (great as they were) was the musicianship. So much of it was really lame, and it was cute how they called it just being cult, as they proceded to improve as musicians (each one of 'em) on successive albums.  The early Darkthrone can be particularly embarassing in this respect.

    Another problem the Second Wave of Scandinavia Black Metal had was their too strenuous commitment to copy their idols. When the (otherwise classic) Burzum/Aske albums are first experienced by long time fans of the band Hellhammer, the first reaction is a roll of the eyes, especially in response to Varg's vocals and the Doom influence. A Blaze is about as Celtic Frost as yer gonna get, only sped up. Most if not all of this stuff you probably already know, Henrik.
  • HaffnerHaffner Posts: 7,887
    [quote author=Agrippa link=topic=13941.msg211868#msg211868 date=1339790573]
    First, a question to Andy: About Panzer Division Marduk:
    [quote author=Haffner link=topic=11531.msg211855#msg211855 date=1339779522]
    I hear so many people cry about the (in neo-Baroque stuffy voice) "lack of dy-NAHM-ics or vari-A-tion". They don't seem to get the fact that it's meant to be that way. To me it's the Reign in Blood of the Second Wave of Scandinavian Black Metal, with either Ablaze in the Northern Sky or In the Nightside Eclipse the Master of Puppets, and Under the Sign of the Black Mark the Paranoid.

    [/quote]

    I was wondering, where do you put albums like Mayhems De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas, Ulvers Bergtatt, Satyricons Nemesis Devina, Kvists For Kunsten Maa Vi Evig Vike, Thorns st and Satyricons Rebel Extravagaza if you still compare them to thrash and metal albums ??

    And imo are A blaze in the Northren sky, Under a Funeral Moon and Transilvanian Hunger by Darkthrone the missing links between Venom, Bathory and the 2nd wave of scandinavian BM.
    [/quote]

    To be more specific: I'm not a fan of Ulver, and from the albums I've owned I never heard much differentiating them from the rest of the SWOSBM crowd until they started reading Blake really. Never liked them and never really bought into their "sophisticated" attitude crap I read in interviews.

    I have no idea what Kvists... is and I suspect it wouldn't change my mind on my position. I thought the early Thorns (I've heard mostly the demo stuff, way back during the tape trading days) got so usurped by the higher quality Mayhem and Burzum material as to render them kind of inconsequential. Kind of the way Nemesis Divina pretty much made the early Satyricon inconsequential, imo. As for their later music, Rebel Extravaganza was okay, but for me it was overall not in the least an adequate follow up to the mighty Nemesis Divina. I've only bothered to own Age of Nero since, sold it months ago. Boring to me.

    For me these are the key links from Under the Sign of the Black Mark and Deathcrush (though the latter is debatable "black metal", I classify it as the First Wave):

    Mayhem- Live in Leipzig
    Darkthrone- A Blaze in the Northern Sky (though the other two you mentioned are really good, especially Under. And even Pazerfaust was pretty cool imo)

    Besides the obvious Hellhammer/Bathory'earliest Sodom influences that all the burgeoning bands in the SWOSBM shared, I assert that the albums A Blaze in the Northern Sky and the early Mayhem were gigantically influential on the key, acknowledged classics of the genre like Burzum/Aske, Emperor/Enslaved, Diabolical Full Moon Mysticism, etc.. Though Live in Lepizig wasn't released until later, we can safely assume those early live performances with Dead had a MASSIVE impact on all the other bands, especially arguably the first of the Second Wave, Darkthrone.

    Again, I feel as though you probably are aware of most if not all of this, and agree with at least parts of it.
  • AgrippaAgrippa Posts: 5,926
    Thank You very much for taking your time to make these points.
    Interesting and relevant (to me) as I knew they would be.

    I too have never really gotten Ulver, neither their early clasics, their intellectual phase (Blake) nor their later almost music verite phase  (Music Verite: everyday sounds like traffic, factories and conversations recorded, arranged and viewed as music).

    Satyricon' s Rebel Extravaganza was scoffed at among many BM fans when it came out.
    But is imo great, very Thorns, or even Ministry, inspired I believe and also imo better than their merging of Black Metal and Motorhead into their own Black'n'Roll genre on their later records Now Diabolical and Age Of Nero

    Kvist' s only album, "For Kunsten Maa Vi Evig Vike" (For The Arts We Must Eternally Yield, or something equally pompous like that) is from 1995, I believe.
    It was (and is) very important to me. 
    http://www.anus.com/metal/kvist.html




    Again thank You for your response..
    As you know, I find this discussion, this music, these bands, their time and place, and even the sub-culture surrounding them, very interessting.

  • SanchoSancho Posts: 18,678
    Moved this here.

    I'm not very much at home in the black metal genre.
    For me, black metal is about Venom and Bathory.
    There's the occasional band that manages to grab my attention. Immortal and Marduk come to mind.
    But a lot of what passes for black metal is commercial crap, aimed to appeal to the angry teen.

    My boss is into really underground black metal. According to him there's a vibrant scene in the Baltic states that really captures the original vibe.
  • AgrippaAgrippa Posts: 5,926
    [quote author=Sancho link=topic=13941.msg211895#msg211895 date=1339845176]

    But a lot of what passes for black metal is commercial crap, aimed to appeal to the angry teen.

    [/quote]

    I see your point, especially when it comes to bands like Dimmu Borgir and Cradle Of Filth.
    Which I certainly don' t scoff at myself, nor their music.
    COF and DB are imo the Iron Maidens and Judas Priests of "the mainstream Black Metal scene"

    And acts like Kiss, Manowar, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Megadeth, Metallica, Black Sabbath, AC/DC was not commercial music aimed to appeal to the angry teens ?
    The segment they cater/catered to surely are/was angry male teens.

    Angry Male Teens are a powerful segment with considerably buying power, Elvis, Rolling Stones, The Beatles, Pink Floyd, The Who, Hendrix and the Doors all knew that too.
    But that doesn' t mean that their (our at one time ?) taste in music is necessarily crap.
  • HaffnerHaffner Posts: 7,887
    [quote author=Agrippa link=topic=13941.msg211897#msg211897 date=1339847116]
    [quote author=Sancho link=topic=13941.msg211895#msg211895 date=1339845176]

    But a lot of what passes for black metal is commercial crap, aimed to appeal to the angry teen.

    [/quote]

    I see your point, especially when it comes to bands like Dimmu Borgir and Cradle Of Filth.
    Which I certainly don' t scoff at myself, nor their music.
    COF and DB are imo the Judas Priests and Iron Maidens  of the "mainstream Black Metal scene".

    And acts like Kiss, Manowar, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Megadeth, Metallica, Black Sabbath, AC/DC was not aimed to appeal to the angry teens ?
    The segment they cater/catered to surely are/was angry male teens.

    Angry Male Teens are a powerful segment with considerably buying power, Elvis, Rolling Stones, The Beatles, Pink Floyd, The Who, Hendrix and the Doors all knew that too.
    But that doesn' t mean that their (our at one time ?) taste in music is necessarily crap.
    [/quote]

    To me Dimmu Borgir started out okay (the debut), then basically turned into an emo-man's version of Cradle of Filth. Jasmine is a fan of Cradle, all the stuff up to and including Cruelty and the Beast. I like those albums too, but Dani Filth is for me unquestionably the most obnoxious singer in Rock history, he just won't shut up. Incredibly irritating to me after a couple of songs. It's unfortunate, because otherwise Dusk and Her Embrace and the aforementioned Cruelty are actually pretty cool in a King Diamond/Hammer Horror way.

    And I completely agree about the danger/youth factor in Rock music. For a recent example (not of the BM genre) , the first thing that attracted me about Nile was hearing "Blessed Dead" and feeling that discomforting danger, the kind that made me fall in love with heavy music in the first place.
  • SanchoSancho Posts: 18,678
    I'd say Kiss and Alice Cooper are better comparisons for Cradle and Dimmu, in that they all pay a lot of attention to the theatrics.

    I should probably stay out of this discussion as I really don't care much for black metal. I will say I have more respect for the bands that make nihilistic primitive noise than I do for the big production theatrical acts.
    They embrace the spirit of what I consider to be black metal (and which isn't necessarily what the rest of the world thinks it is  :wink:)
  • Seven MoonsSeven Moons Posts: 8,772
    I'm pretty much a black metal ignoramus, and most of what I've heard doesn't do much for me. I actually have a hard time getting into modern extreme stuff when it's not super-tight and well produced...   There are some BM bands that I occasionally like, though. Off the top of my head: Absu, Immortal.  The last Immortal, in particular, was an impressive album (it was just lacking upfront leadwork ... but yeah, I know, it's not supposed to have that).

    As for the symphonic branch (Cradle, Dimmu...), this is definitely not my cup of tea. But yeah, some of these bands are quite interesting, because they're exploring something out of the standard verse-chorus-verse formula.

    By the way, is Green Carnation considered BM?  Because I totally like "Light of Day...", but I would rather call that Prog metal.










  • AgrippaAgrippa Posts: 5,926
    Green Carnation is Tchorts project.
    Tchort has played with Emperor, Carpathian Forrest, Satyricon and other Black Metal "dignataries" so I'd say his black metal pedigree is approved.
    But I wouldn´t label Green Carnation as "Black Metal" either. Progressive Gothic Metal maybe ?
    I only have Light Of Day, Day Of Darkness and their Trilogy vinyl box containing the three first.
    Haven' t heard their later (after Blessing In Disguise) work.
    I should check it out.
  • inmyhandsinmyhands Posts: 11,646
    Since I'm listed as the moderator of this section I hope somebody PMs me if something's getting out of hand. Other than Kiss and Alice Cooper these other bands sound like guest stars in horror movies I've never seen.
  • AgrippaAgrippa Posts: 5,926
    [quote author=inmyhands link=topic=13941.msg211937#msg211937 date=1339896954]
    these other bands sound like guest stars in horror movies I've never seen.
    [/quote]
    :LOL:

    I think that' s the vibe they are going for.

    re: Many of these artist are imo very serious about their art, lifestyle and ideologies.
    That doesn' t mean you can' t laugh heartily at their shenanigans AND enjoy their artistic vision(s).

    I have a firend who plays in a Black Metal band called Blazing Eternity that enjoyed some small cultlike succes in the 90's. 
    He has met and talked to many of these "scary" guys from Gorgoroth, Mayhem, Emperor, Immortal and others and he claims most of them are friendly, goodnatured dudes who likes a good laugh and a drink, and that the PR is just that, PR.

  • StitselStitsel Posts: 2,048
    I can't break it down as scientifically as Haff, but I'll just chime in & say I too love it as a genre.....

    The bands already mentioned, and a few others.....

    You all know Dissection right? One of my faves.....the 1st 2 had some excellent fretwork going on....
  • HaffnerHaffner Posts: 7,887
    [quote author=Stitsel link=topic=13941.msg211988#msg211988 date=1339974647]


    You all know Dissection right? One of my faves.....the 1st 2 had some excellent fretwork going on....
    [/quote]


    They were really cool. I didn't like much after that, they got a little too Swedishly-melodic I guess. I tend to prefer the more ripping stuff. I love how Emperor opens up Anthems (after the prelude) with the scathing Ye Entranceperium. That's just plain killer Black Metal imo, great way to get things rolling.
  • StitselStitsel Posts: 2,048
    Yes,absolutely!! :up:

    That prelude crescendo with the trumpets  (or whatever they are) is the perfect lead-up to that 1st song!!
  • HaffnerHaffner Posts: 7,887
    [quote author=Stitsel link=topic=13941.msg211992#msg211992 date=1339976102]
    Yes,absolutely!! :up:

    That prelude crescendo with the trumpets  (or whatever they are) is the perfect lead-up to that 1st song!!
    [/quote]

    The the slaying begins. That is a great album, though I'll never understand what possessed them to bury the vocals THAT low in the mix. It's abominable.
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